Jess Carter: The reality of life as a Lioness
S16 Ep 1
“The England management in place now, and the type of environment we try to create for the senior team is very different to before… the environment at England camp is a much friendlier and nicer one than it was a handful of years ago.”
We start a new series with a fabulous conversation with Jess Carter, a professional footballer with England and Chelsea.
Jess was one of the Lionesses that won the Euros in 2022 and went on to win silver in the World Cup in 2023.
Surprisingly, representing England was never an ambition for Jess as a young player.
She talks candidly about how the shift in intensity as a Chelsea player impacted her, the challenge of her early games for England and the positive change she’s seen in the England set-up under the leadership of Sarina Wiegman, which has enabled players to flourish and the national team to fulfil its potential.
We explore the real issue around diversity in the national team and WSL, why Jess is so comfortable talking publicly about her sexuality, and how she personally deals with negative comments on social media.
It’s a refreshingly open conversation with a high-profile England player.
Thank you to Sport England who support The Game Changers Podcast with a National Lottery award.
Find out more about The Game Changers here.
Presented by Sue Anstiss
Produced by Sam Walker, What Goes On Media
A Fearless Women production.
This transcript has been autogenerated so please forgive typos.
The Game Changers - Jess Carter: The reality of life as a Lioness
Sue Anstiss (00:01)
Hello and welcome to The Game Changers. I'm Sue Anstiss, and this is the podcast where you'll hear from trailblazing women in sport who are knocking down barriers and challenging the status quo for women and girls everywhere. What can we learn from their journeys as we explore some of the key issues around equality in sport and beyond? I'd like to start with a big thank you to our partners Sport England, who support The Game Changers podcast through a National Lottery Award. My guest today is an incredible Lioness, Jess Carter. Jess was part of the England team that won the Euros in 2022 and won silver in the World Cup in 2023. Jess plays for Chelsea in the WSL, where she's just signed an extension to her contract, having been with the team since 2018. So Jess, before we start and talk all things football, I'd quite like to ask you about a different sport, if I can. I believe you were once quite a keen rugby player.
Jess Carter (01:03)
Yeah, no I did. When I was in primary school, I'm not even sure what age it was really, but one of my friend's parents just asked if I wanted to come along to rugby with their son. And I went and they started off as tag rugby, then went to full contact etc. and I stayed with them. It was at my local team, Clavadon, and then it got to the point where I couldn't play rugby with the boys anymore. And I quite enjoyed it, so I went and joined Worcester Warriors girls team and played with them for a little bit of time and then when I joined Birmingham at 16 they told me I had to I guess kind of make a choice between football and rugby because of the risk of injury and at that time I just chose football. Still to this day I'd probably say I think I was a better rugby player to be honest but clearly the decision I made wasn't too bad in the end.
Sue Anstiss (01:53)
Absolutely and do you get a chance to watch much women's rugby at all today as a fan? Do you follow the sport at all?
Jess Carter (02:00)
No, I don't really. I haven't watched rugby in a long time. I'd definitely still say it's a sport that I really enjoyed playing, it was never a sport that I actually watched much of really. I just liked playing it but I think that's the same with a lot of sports really. I say I like a lot of sport but I don't actually watch as much anymore.
Sue Anstiss (02:19)
And you say that where you grew up, in kind of Birmingham, Warwick area and you were captain of the Warwick Juniors in the county, up to the county championship I believe. So what are those early memories of you playing I guess choosing between rugby and football but what are your early memories of playing football?
Jess Carter (02:36)
Honestly, I've got, I think all my favourite moments are from when I was younger playing football. I've been lucky enough to achieve a lot in my football career, but I think being young and just playing with absolute freedom is, I don't think anything can compare to that. I was lucky enough to play with some, all of my friends when we were younger with Warwick and to achieve some great things there. So that was definitely great. And I got to play football and play rugby. I had the best of both worlds really.
Sue Anstiss (03:02)
And when did you realise and really appreciate that you had that great talent that would take you to that next stage? Is that around the age of 16?
Jess Carter (03:11)
No, not really. I think that for me football was always just about having a laugh and having a bit of a kickabout and I think that still to this day I say that I didn't really think I took football seriously until I joined Chelsea and I was about 19 I think because even as at Birmingham, I mean a lot of the women there, we weren’t full time, a lot of the women worked two jobs, etc. And to me football at Birmingham was it was great I had fun. I always try my best But it was just more about having a good time rather than actually this is a career and I joined Chelsea and I think football had just grown so much in those four years that I was at Birmingham. I joined Chelsea and I think things just went on to a different level of the you know the professionalism that you had to have in order to play at Chelsea just went up massively so I think I was probably around 19 before I actually realized that this could be a career.
Sue Anstiss (04:00)
That's really interesting, isn't it? So were you studying, you were in the academy in Birmingham. Were you studying at the same time as that, was it?
Jess Carter (04:08)
Yeah, so I was studying at the same time I was at college, at Solihull College because Birmingham had a good connection with them so I would study there in a day and train with Birmingham which was also just around the corner. I joined their academy when I was 15 and I was only there for a few months before I turned 16 in the October and joined the first team and was with them until I signed for Chelsea when I was 19.
Sue Anstiss (04:41)
And you say that whole not feeling like you were that high highest or taking it really seriously as a player, but you'll tell us about your debut for Birmingham City, because that's pretty amazing then as coming into the team as a 16 year old.
Jess Carter (04:53)
Yeah, I remember Meg Sargent, I think she got injured, she was a player that played left-back at the time. She got injured not long before the Champions League game, my debut. And we had actually a friendly game the week before against the local boys team. And I remember before the game, my manager, he basically put me at full back because of, he kind of really didn't have anyone else to play there. And the manager said, oh, if you do well, you'll play there on whenever it was against Arsenal and I was just like, yeah, okay, whatever. And I went home and then my manager called my dad and said, would you mind Jess having the day off from school because of, we want her to start in the Champions League. And this obviously is during the week. So I would have had school at that point. And like my dad just said, yeah, straight away, he's big football. And I kind of, and I went to the game and obviously we played, but I don't really think it really settled at the time. I didn't really notice or realise what I'd kind of achieved in that moment. I mean, how many people can say they played in the Champions League semi-final, let alone at the age of 16 on their debut? It was just, at the time, I literally had no care or worries in the world, perks of I guess being a youngster and just having a good time and obviously now when I look back, I'm very well aware that it was a pretty huge achievement.
Sue Anstiss (06:18)
Yeah, and you got, did you get a play of the match as well in that game?
Jess Carter (06:23)
Yeah, I did. I did get player of the match. This new kid, I guess that no one knew of. So I didn't do too bad. So yeah, and I think that's probably one of my best achievements, really.
Sue Anstiss (06:29)
With that completely relaxed attitude, isn't it? That's probably the thing that helps there too. As you said, you signed for Chelsea in 2018 and I remember seeing you in the documentary series, One Dream, One Team, and you were very open about the challenge of the intensity of training at Chelsea after Birmingham. So how different was it and how tough was that transition for you?
Jess Carter (06:36)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that the transition was tough because, I think like I've said it was, I went from just having a laugh and having fun to, well, like, this is, we're competing for titles here. We're in every single day. The intensity of training is so much higher than anything I'd ever experienced before. My version of what professionalism was whilst I was at Birmingham is not really, was not what professionalism actually is. And I quickly found that out. It went from playing pretty much every game at Birmingham to hardly getting on the pitch at Chelsea. And it was just, from Birmingham was so different at Chelsea. And I think that that's kind of what made me realise that if I wanted to play football, that I was gonna have to go up a lot of levels in order to, I guess, perform, in order to stay there and compete at this club. And, you know, that definitely took a while before I think I was, I guess, cemented a place or was really properly part of the team in terms of like my professionalism. So yeah, it definitely took its time.
Sue Anstiss (07:59)
And do you think the documentary painted a true picture of you at the time? And I guess how, I guess the thing is how much has your attitude and kind of changed towards fitness and nutrition?
Jess Carter (08:18)
Yeah, I mean, I didn't watch the whole documentary because I watched about two episodes and not really, I didn't love it. I didn't like the way that things were portrayed at times because I don't think it was an accurate reflection of everyone's situation. But there's definitely you know the parts about myself where you know I spoke about nutrition and fitness they were, they've always been my two biggest barriers in playing football um I think that initially it was my lack of understanding of what I needed to at the fitness levels I needed to be at how well you needed to eat to be an athlete like I was 16 17 18 I could have eaten McDonald's for breakfast and still run around and being great because I was a kid and had all this energy. You can't do that at 19, 20, 24. Like it's, you know, you just can't get away with those things. And I think that I had a lot, a lack of knowledge initially. And then I think I had a lack of wanting to learn about it because I was 16, 17, 18, I'm not a teenager cares about what you put in your body really. So, and I think that obviously having gone through the first few years of playing for Chelsea and having to realize that I have to be, you know, fitter than everyone else just to get on the pitch. I have to eat better than other people to get an opportunity, those sorts of things. And so to be able to play 90 minutes every three days, which often we have at Chelsea, that's tough for the world's fittest player to do, let alone someone who's not looking after themselves properly. So they are, I think it's probably the first, I'd even say maybe three years at Chelsea for me to really get into a place where I thought I was in a position to compete, to play. So yeah, my view of things now is definitely changed compared to that documentary that's for sure.
Sue Anstiss (10:20)
It's a lovely quote, and it's a while ago I watched it, but it's a lovely quote of the whole where you put seeds in your yoghurt. ‘Why would you want to spoil yoghurt by putting seeds in it?’ It was like, but it was like exactly what my daughters would have said, exactly the same thing at 16, so I completely understand. You're a young woman aren't you, in a different world.
Jess Carter (10:32)
Yeah, I mean, and there's so many people that obviously, as athletes, I think for a lot of people, the nutrition side of it is really tough. I mean, for me, I'm a really sociable person. I like to go out with my friends. I like to, we like to go up to restaurants and eat and, you know, interact with other people. And I'm not going to sit here and say that I sit at home and eat chicken and vegetables every day, because I definitely do not. But, you know, it's that balance between trying to be a professional and also, I guess, enjoy your life as well. Because if you're not enjoying it, you're not going to be performing at your best 100%. I don't care what anyone says. And
everyone's you know you've got to find a way to enjoy yourself the best you can whilst being the best professional you can as well.
Sue Anstiss (11:12)
Yeah, absolutely in moderation, isn't it? In 2017, you were named PFA Young Player of the Year, and you also made your senior England debut. So how did that feel, the time to be called up then for the national team?
Jess Carter (11:25)
Yeah, I think that is, I mean, my experience with England has always been really interesting. I've been in and out of the setup, joined quite late as a 16 year old and then been in and out of the setup. So I think that's always been an interesting journey for me. I think I just remember at the time, I don't, it sounds really bad now, but I wasn't really too bothered at the time when I got called up. I think my family were a lot more excited than what I was. It was, you know, I wasn't, it just kind of was what it was. It was more playing football, et cetera. I wasn't excited to be away from home for 10 days. I don't know many people that are. And I went and it was just, obviously it was a lot more intense. So more meetings, I was away from home, sharing a room with someone that was 10 years older than me. I think at the time I shared a room with Kaz Carney and obviously I knew her from Birmingham, but we weren't exactly friends and I was a kid and I wouldn't say I enjoyed my initial experience going up to senior level. It was something, again, entirely different. But I think that my experiences of England's senior team has definitely changed over the years with the older I've got, but equally with the management that's kind of come in place and the type of environment that we try to create at the senior team now is different to before. And I guess that just goes, you know, that adapts and changes with the way that football changes and football grows. And I'd like to think that this environment that we've created, that England is a much friendlier and nicer one than was there a handful years ago and yeah.
Sue Anstiss (12:59)
Absolutely, you can see the difference, can't you? You say that coming late to at 16, so were you arriving with other players that had been from the pathway from a much younger age, sort of England under X, Y and Z, on the way to that age group?
Jess Carter (13:12)
Yeah. Yeah, so when I first joined with England, even like at the youth system, I joined at 16, but I was playing for the under 19s. And normally I should have been playing for I think it's the under 16s or under 17s. So I went up an age group. And I think a lot of the girls that had been that were playing for the under 19s at the time had been in since the younger ages because they'd been in academies longer. Or they'd been like recognised earlier, etc. Whereas I hadn't been recognized until I joined Birmingham. Because before then I just played at a grassroots team. So, and then when I got into the setup, I was a little bit in and out. I wasn't there all the time. I was at the end of 19s, but once that stopped, it was just, I was just a bit really inconsistent with my England youth career. And then when it got to the point where it was either youth or seniors, I then didn't get selected for seniors for quite a while. Or I did and had a call up then, wasn't for a while, et cetera. Just at that point, I don't really know any other reason, but I
Sue Anstiss (14:15)
How did you feel about that at the time?
Jess Carter (14:18)
I mean, I wasn't really bothered to be honest, because at that time I wasn't, my main ambition wasn't to play for England senior team. It wasn't, it was just play football and what we will be really. If I get selected, I do. If I don't, I go back to Birmingham and I play there every week. And it wasn't a goal of mine to play for England at that time. So it wasn't something I got disheartened about at all. And I think every manager has, you know, they have their reasons for not selecting you. Whether you agree with them is different, but everyone's, you know, whether it's a philosophy, style of play, fitness, just don't like you as a player, it could be anything, someone could be better than you so I think that's always the case in football and then obviously the more I, when I joined Chelsea I also then wasn't bothered about seniors as much because I was I had to get into the Chelsea squad first you can't get selected for England if you're not playing consistently for Chelsea so that was like my next ambition and then I think once I started to cement my place at Chelsea a bit more and I guess showcase what I could do at a higher level, the next step really was then can I get into the England team and once I get into that team can I keep my place there and I think that was then the main goal from that point.
Sue Anstiss (15:29)
And as you say, there was that kind of gap, wasn't there, 2017 and then a bit of a gap in and out, and it was kind of 2022 with Euros and then into the World Cup that you've almost cemented that place. So, and clearly management's changed and the setup has changed and all those things, but do you feel you've significantly changed as a person and a player over that time? How do you feel you've changed? You got better?
Jess Carter (15:51)
Yeah! Yeah, no, obviously improved from on the pitch, my lifestyle off the pitch as well. Those sorts of things have definitely improved. And I guess what my own goals were, like I said before, I didn't care for playing for England. It wasn't a goal of mine. And obviously now that's changed to it being a goal of mine as well. And I also just think that, I guess I think that my managers previously would have said, I'm quite a direct person and what you see is what you get, wear your heart on your sleeve all that sort of stuff and I was a person that if I wasn't happy you'd know about it and I'd maybe be quite outspoken. I am all here for being outspoken I think being outspoken is excellent I just obviously learnt the order I've got there's a way in which you can do it and a way not to do it and that is definitely something that I've had to learn as I've gotten older to just some things you can't do like kind of control what you can control and there's some things you just have to get on with and yeah I've always been one for voicing my opinion so I think having to learn to do that in the right way is has been a challenge for sure.
Sue Anstiss (16:56)
It's maturity, it's like time and experience and working with different people it comes in time. Emma Hayes, the current Chelsea manager, is about to leave to manage the US Women's National Team and obviously there's been much speculation in the media about who the new manager might be. I wonder, do the players talk openly about who they would like in that role? Do you have a preference as players? Do you have thoughts or are you just waiting to see what happens?
Jess Carter (17:20)
I think most of us are just waiting to see what happens. Obviously it will be, Emma's been at Chelsea for as long as I can remember. So, you know, most people don't know Chelsea without Emma Hayes. So it was going to be a massive transition regardless of who we get in. I don't really know. It's not really something we've spoken about as players really, who we do or don't want, maybe individuals have, but, and I personally, my knowledge of managers is horrendous. I know players, I know what I have to do on the pitch. But I don't I can't tell you who seems like a good manager and who doesn't because I don't think it's as black and white Like people think that you know if you're winning you must mean you have a good manager And if you're losing you must have a bad one We all know it's not as black and white as that so you know and it's not something that I can control really So I just have to do what I can and when we get a new manager,you know try and find out a way to work with them the best that I can and the best that we can as a team
Sue Anstiss (18:14)
I was going to ask how much a manager and their personality and attitudes can impact how you feel about playing for a club too, as a player because you say it's part of it but it's not the whole package is it?
Jess Carter (18:27)
100% I think that you often get, maybe when you initially sign for the club, it can be about what the team, you know, how good the team are and what that manager might come across as. But we all know that, you know, often, especially with the media and things, you don't, you don't know anyone until you actually get there and you spend that kind of time with them. And I think that it's, you know, it's, it's easy to say this manager might be good because of the media have spoken this way about them or because they've done well. And, but, and that might be initially what gets you to go to a team, but I think actually then once you're actually at the team and you realise the way that you play or you know there's so many things that then impact the reason why you might stay at that team versus then moving on.
Sue Anstiss (19:09)
Absolutely. And you appear clearly to be a laid-back chilled person, but do you feel pressure before games? Do you get nervous before games or do you need to kind of hype yourself up into it or is it about...
Jess Carter (19:21)
No, I wouldn't say I'm a nervous person. If anything, I'm probably too laid back, really. I probably need to have something that switches me on a bit quicker. But yeah, I think I'm really relaxed because to me, not everyone will agree, but football is just a game and it's just the job. It's just the game the same way everyone else has a job or a sport that they love to play. And for me, it's just going out and giving the best that you can. And obviously, we're at a club like Chelsea, there is more pressure to try and win everything.That's, you know, for some people that can be more nerve-racking because ultimately if you don't play well, you might not play the next game. If you don't play well, they'll get someone in. If you don't play well, they might not resign your contract. So there are other pressures there. But for me, before a game, I think that you just go out and you do the best that you can and that's all you can do, really. And if it's not good enough, it's not good enough.
Sue Anstiss (20:12)
Love it. And obviously it's been an incredible couple of years for Lioness's winning a home Euros in 2022. So what's your fondest memory as you look back, what are your kind of really core memories of that event?
Jess Carter (20:27)
Have the euros.
Sue Anstiss (20:28)
Yeah.
Jess Carter (20:29)
Gosh, sounds really silly maybe but actually we start to play volleyball during the during the tournament. I think maybe at the quarterfinal stage or around the 16th, one of the kit men just put up a volleyball net and we played it and loads of people got involved and it was just such good fun, the weather was amazing and we were able all able to just completely switch off you know everyone's missing home and it's a lot being away with 23 women 24 7 that's a that's a big ask that is you know, and being on someone else's schedule and time frame and away from home is it's not fun, like sometimes it's not fun at all and so that was a real moment where I think it just picked everyone up and brought everyone together again and we just had a lot of fun and I really loved that and I know a lot of the other girls did and you know on the pitch can you really beat the final and to be part of that crowd during that game was incredible. I'm not really someone that gets bothered by stadiums, big stadiums or like I don't get excited to play in a certain stadium or anything like that but that day of walking out of Wembley and seeing the fans and hearing the fans and it was just incredible the roar of the national anthem, the roar when we scored, they were memories I think that will definitely last with everyone forever.
Sue Anstiss (21:58)
I love the memory of the final obviously, but I love that sort of anecdote about the volleyball. So I think it was the rugby girls out in New Zealand playing cricket, some of them playing beach cricket, one of the international teams and that whole trying something, you're all amazing athletes but playing something just purely for fun and engagement can be so powerful can't it?
Jess Carter (22:18)
Yeah for sure I think that we... Obviously everyone's very different and you know, for some people being part of the tournament was just fun and it was great, but for some people they didn't have a great experience. They might not have played. They might have missed home more than others. They might have had other stuff going on. And I think going and playing volleyball is just something that everybody could totally switch off from. Anything going on in their own head and just enjoy being in this moment, like being able to play volleyball very badly, may I add, but just have an absolute great time.
Sue Anstiss (22:49)
I’ve got it lined up for your next sport now, you know rugby and football and then volleyball for your next career and then playing in your first World Cup last summer in Australia so was the tournament there everything you'd hoped it had been when you kind of thought about it in the past did it meet those expectations?
Jess Carter (22:53)
Yeah. I honestly, I'd never thought about playing in the World Cup, to be honest. I honestly, playing women's, playing football is never something I envisioned myself doing as a career. So I wouldn't say I'm a goal setter. And I definitely don't think I would say to me, playing in the World Cup is an unrealistic goal to set. And it's not something I ever thought I'd do. I mean, the quality we have here in England is unbelievable. So to think that I'd actually get to that stage isn't something I ever thought about. And I think so when I went obviously to the World Cup, same with the Euros, I didn't have any expectations really obviously people talk about it and from the outside world everyone thinks it's just amazing and it's got to be the best thing in the world and it's actually it's also exhausting you're miles and miles away from home you don't get to speak to anyone it's you're away for a long time if you get to the final and but equally there are some amazing moments that you that you can't really explain, the bonds that you create with people because you don't have your friends or family. The bonds that you create are unreal. For me, I was lucky enough that some of my family got to travel out to Australia. We got some incredible support from England and the FA which they supplied some financial support to help get
families out there, which was amazing because without that my family wouldn't have been able to come. So yeah, they came out and I just wanted to got to see them and you know that was really helpful for me that's probably not sure I could have got through the tournament without that really so yeah that was great and it was really interesting to see what football was like from the other side of the world obviously we see the fan base and football getting so huge here but we don't really know what that's like elsewhere so to see the support the crowds the fans you know people fill in the streets just to come and watch a game like any sort of game that was that was amazing to see I think that was one of my favorite things was just to see how big football had got the other side of the world.
Sue Anstiss (25:10)
I love that whole kind of the FA helping to get families out there, because that's the kind of things we don't always hear about when you're thinking about the preparation for a big tournament. But obviously that make a massive difference to your wellbeing as players, and then your performance on the pitch and everything else too. That's interesting, isn't it?
Jess Carter (25:27)
Yeah, exactly that. That's one thing I've noticed since Serena has taken over is that her, how important it is for her to make sure that all of our well-being is looked after and it's not just about playing football or being healthy, it's the things that if we didn't really have our families there, I'm not sure everyone would have been able to play at their best because if you're missing home, you know, there's people, you can't time zone, you can't speak to everyone when you want to speak to everyone, you know, I'm lucky enough that I normally have family come to every single one of my games. So to play a game without them, that like that happens, but that's kind of it. It's that's not so new for me That's not so I'm not used to that So it definitely makes me gives me a little bit of I guess extra oomph my when I know my family are there I mean it's huge for some people some others It might not they might have been bothered if they didn't see their families But I think that they really try, you know The England staff really try their best to make sure that we don't have to think or worry about a single thing other than just playing football. So yeah. For me the help and support we get from them is incredible. I think that obviously there are some senior players in the team who have fought and fought for so much for so long over a long period of time that maybe there are certain things that for them maybe still aren't good enough or are given or that we should get better support from. But I think as someone who's not been in the team for so long I've not seen that side of things. I've only seen the really great things that we get all this help and all the support and everything. So I only have really positive things to kind of talk about but I know that there's players there that have had to fight a long time to get what we now get and I think that because of them constantly fighting for better things you know that's why we that's why we're so fortunate now so a massive credit to those senior players who will continue to fight for us.
Sue Anstiss (27:06)
Yeah. Brilliant, absolutely. It was obviously an incredible achievement to make it to the final and you had the whole country supporting behind you. Spain eventually prevailed in the final of course but what followed with the uncovering of the sexism and the misogyny in Spanish football was so powerful, it's had such a big impact. As England players, were you aware of what the Spanish team had been dealing with in the build up to the World Cup or are you aware of that?
Jess Carter (27:47)
Yeah, I think so. I think it was, I think everyone knows, you know, even if you don't know the full facts, everyone knows that some thing in the Spanish team and the Spanish system wasn't right and wasn't how it should be. And obviously, we have some players that play in Spain, so we were aware of the difficulties and the challenges that some of them were facing. And obviously, as I think as athletes, I think every nation just tried their best to support them in the best way that we could. But I think that the way the Spanish conducted themselves throughout the tournament whilst going through so much and before and after the tournament was incredible and a massive credit to them to go through all of that and to then come out of a World Cup having won it is phenomenal.
Sue Anstiss (28:31)
And how do you feel in terms of, I guess football as a sport, it's a broad question really, but in terms of that inherent sexism and misogyny that we still see, I don't want to bloody mention the man with the ranty posts on Twitter about female pundits at the moment, but there just feels like there's this band of men that come out that are so resistant to women even having any part within the game. And I wonder how you as an elite player feel about that, or do you just shut yourself off from that? What's your thinking there?
Jess Carter (29:00)
I think for me, yeah. In my honest opinion, quite frankly, I don't care about anyone's opinions other than those that matter most to me, whether that's family, friends, teammates, coaches. If you're none of those, I don't care about your opinion when it comes to much, but specifically not football really. Obviously, it's still never nice to see comments about, you know, negative things about you. It's horrible to see. I wouldn't go onto social media and tell someone else how to do their job. I find it tough when people do that for us, but I think that what we have to remember is there's a reason why I play for Chelsea. There's a reason why I get selected for England. And, you know, remembering the good things that I can do, remembering the qualities that I can bring in. Yes, of course we've all got weaknesses. We all have really, really bad games as well. But nine times out of 10, we do something really, really good for the team and that we're all important in whatever role that we play. And I think that you just have to remember those things.
things, you know, what makes you is such a big gift to yourself and the players and people around you.
Sue Anstiss (30:10)
I love that, yeah. People that matter, that is the focus really, isn't it? And as a lioness, after the huge success of the Euros and the World Cup, we've obviously suddenly become these huge role models for young girls. So how does that feel as a responsibility for you? And has it changed how you behave at all or what you're sharing on social media and those kind of things?
Jess Carter (30:13)
Yeah, I think that's always a really tough thing when people speak about being a role model because it's never something I saw myself being. I...I think that for me I don't play football to inspire the next generation. I play football because I love playing football and I want to play football. If we can help and support and be there and be an inspiration to people as part of the journey then that's incredible. If there's young girls that want to be like me that's amazing because I never looked up to a female athlete and wanted to be like them because of the female footballer specifically. I didn't know anything about when I was younger so there was no one that I aspired to be. So if someone looks and sees a Jess Carter wants to be like Jess Carter then obviously that's amazing. And I think that, we've got some great people in our team, specifically in England, you know, the likes of Lotte Wubben-Moy who really, really pushed to try and leave football in a better place and to be able to be part of that, like for instance, Lotte's journey in terms of helping to leave football in a better place and help give access to other people around England is incredible. And it does feel amazing when we've achieved things such as extra PE hours for every girl and boy in school. That's an incredible achievement. And to see more girls and boys wanting to play football, that's amazing as well. So I think that those things are incredible. Seeing more fans come to the game is great to be part of for sure. I do think it probably, when we do look at social media, I have gone from, I'll post whatever I want to post because it's my social media, to being a little bit more aware of what's out there for sure because of not just for the young boys or girls it's also how I want to come across as well it's about I want to be my authentic self but I also want to show you know, be honest about kind of the person I am as well and it's sometimes it's difficult because you're like it's just social media it's just my like who cares what I post on it but there are a lot of people who cares what I post and so I do think you have to be a little bit aware of how things come across because as much as it's just about yourself, you’re also representing, I'm also representing England and Chelsea and Chelsea and England are also a brand as well and they have to come across a certain way to their supporters as well so you don't want to see or do things that might upset them as well.
Sue Anstiss (32:41)
Yeah it's interesting on the role models piece isn't it because I sometimes feel the male players don't have this pressure to be role models. Like if I was interviewing a male footballer, which I don't think I would be on the Game Changers, but if I was, I wouldn't be saying oh how does it feel to be a role model for young boys? It's like there's almost like a double standard that the men can just be great players and if young boys and girls aspire to them that's fine but it isn't like the centre of what we expect of them. It's interesting isn't it?
Jess Carter (33:21)
Yeah, I'm not too sure like why things… like I guess because of male football has always been a thing. There's always been in the media. It's not something new. Whereas women's football, even though it's not something new, they played it and were phenomenal at it many, many years ago, but it's now coming out as if it's something new. And there is an extra expectation, I think, that female footballers have to give and do more than male footballers. Male footballers can go play football, go home, do whatever they want. I don't think that we can do that as such. Yes, they are scrutinized on a wholenother level because of their profiles are so big that the abuse that male footballers get is, abuse is never good, but the abuse that male footballers get is incredibly poor, like it's so bad on a much bigger level. But I think that we have an expectation to be role models, we have an expectation to leave the game in a better place or to drive standards here or push for more etc. Whereas men just get it and they don't have an expectation to have to inspire everyone else. I’m not sure why we do. I don't, I can't answer that for you because we always get asked about being a role model but I guess maybe it's because of, because I didn't have role models you know there's other people that have got role models to be a male footballer because they saw it every single day on their TV screens growing up, whereas I didn’t. So I guess that we do have, you know, a little bit of responsibility to do that because, you know, we want people, we want young girls and boys to want to play football. We want them to go and do whatever they want to do and enjoy and have no barriers that we maybe have faced.
Sue Anstiss (35:06)
I think for me also as well, the bigger piece for sport me is not, it's not even about the football, it's about young girls seeing you and the Lionesses and that success and then being able to go in the playground and stand their ground with boys and do whatever they want to do in life that isn't necessarily sport, but having the confidence to be strong women and have equality in society. So that's my, that's why I think it's so important. I wonder, obviously you're a defender. And I wonder, does it ever frustrate you when you see the forwards, and other players that almost get more media attention, the sponsorship, the profile, or are you just really happy with being where you are? Does that ever kind of bubble away and frustrate you?
Jess Carter (35:49)
I think it's a bit of both really because I've never understood why, you know, strikers get either better contracts or more media or better sponsors. I never understood because...I don't know, I don't get it. We all do exactly the same thing. We are all just, you can't play a single game without every position on the pitch. And you could have a striker who has missed 10 out of 15 chances, but because they scored the five goals, they're still amazing. I don't, it doesn't make sense to me at all. But at the same time, I also feel like sometimes it comes with more pressure of having more sponsorships, bigger contracts. There is more pressure for you as well and so maybe those that go a little bit under the radar maybe don't have maybe have a bit more freedom to just play and what will be will be so I think it comes hand in hand you know obviously if you do have a more a bigger profile then yes it comes with better contracts better sponsorships which can only help improve certain aspects of your life but equally I'm not sure how many people would actually want to have the pressure that comes with it as well yeah
Sue Anstiss (36:57)
Yeah. Are you happy where you are?
Jess Carter
Yeah
You're very open about being a gay woman in a relationship with a fellow footballer, with Ann. And have you ever faced any challenges or pushback being that open? Or are you just really comfortable with your place, especially within the world of women's football?
Jess Carter (37:18)
Yeah, no, I personally never faced any challenges with it. I've got a really accepting family and really open family. And for me, meeting Ann was something entirely new to me before Ann I'd never been with a woman. So that was something entirely new to me. But I just, my family, when I told them, they were like, okay, they didn't care. It was like, why are you even telling me sort of thing. So maybe I was really lucky to have a family that literally couldn't care less. And I think that I'm very I'm very comfortable and confident in who I am regardless of who I'm with so I think for me there's nothing anyone could say that would change that for me you know I'm I think I'm lucky to have had a family which has almost built me up with this confidence to be who I am because not everyone unfortunately has that of course you always got on social media stupid comments, homophobic comments but I think that you know it's some it kind of just makes me laugh more than anything because it's like some of the comments that you get are like what if I was with a guy then I'd be with you? some of them are so ridiculous it's so ridiculous that there's no other possible way to interpret it. Other than to just laugh.
I've only had really amazing people in my life to support me and it makes me sad when I know that there's some people out there that don't have that, for sure. But I think that women's football is such an inclusive sport that anyone can just be whoever they want to be. I'm not sure why that's not the case in every aspect of life, but I do know women's football, it's just literally you could be whoever you want to be and no one's gonna care, and there’s just nothing but support and that does give me a really nice feeling about Women's Football that it's so inclusive.
Sue Anstiss (39:14)
I spoke to Casey Stoney on the podcast actually, and she said she delayed coming out publicly when she was captain because she so hated that stereotype of, oh, a female footballer, therefore you must be gay. And she didn't wanna give people more ammunition to talk negatively about women's football. So I wonder whether, that is obviously a different way of viewing it, and clearly she talked really openly about the fact that she was so pleased that she did and the impact that that's had but interesting that she didn't want to further that kind of stereotype that people have.
Jess Carter (39:46)
Yeah, I think that obviously everyone feels so differently about it and everyone's journey to.. might influence whether they are open about it or not. For me, I don't see what hiding it has, how that benefits, maybe that benefits you because maybe you're just a private person, you don't want anyone knowing your business and that's 100% totally fine as well. Unfortunately for me, I'm far too open and I say everything really. But equally if it helps someone else, you know, if someone else sees actually, yeah, actually it is fine to be who you wanna be. You know, these girls are, they play at the highest level and they are absolutely who they want to be, which means yes, I can do that as well. And I think that for me is big as well. And, you know, it also goes back to social media. If I go and go and do something, I have an amazing holiday with my partner. I want to be able to show it just the way a straight couple would, like what literally, what is the difference? And I just, I want people, other people to be able to, to be like that. And I'd like to give the narrative that women's football is inclusive, not, Oh, you play football, so you must be gay. There's plenty of straight women in football, plenty of them as well. And I just think that it's just the case that we are just accepting to being whoever you wanna be.
Sue Anstiss (40:57)
Yeah, absolutely. There's been quite a lot of noise in the media recently about the lack of diversity in the England team, I'd say in the last five years or so. And I know that's also been an issue for some of the WSL clubs as well. So as a black woman who's had success in the WSL and with England, why do you feel there is still that issue?
Jess Carter (41:22)
I think when we speak about diversity in football, I think it's a really tough thing to ever get right because I think I firstly believe that Serena picks the best people that she think suits her team, her style of play, et cetera. And I'm a big believer in that. And I am a big believer in that in most clubs as well. I don't, maybe that's me being too like, I don't know, positive or whatever and that everyone's great. But I think that people, managers don't think about the colour of someone's skin when they're playing it's about who best fits their system. I think that obviously dependent on in certain circumstances I know we've worked a lot spoken a lot with England and the FA about making sure that football is accessible for everyone and that's everyone all over England in we always talk about inner cities but I come from a little town and a little village where football wasn't as accessible for everyone there either so you know it's that we almost have to change the narrative. Not everyone has a sob story. Not everyone has grown up in a rough inner city place, not everyone's struggling. It's just the case of making it super accessible for everyone and I think that's been the most important thing is I don't know they try to do a lot of their research to try and make football accessible in areas where there is more diversity and I hope and I think that years to come that now that they’ve put that in place there might be more diversity coming through but I also think that it's also down to interpretation because I don't see diversity just as black skin or white skin it's also a case of and you know Arsenal I know have been in the media a lot lately they have so many players there from different nationalities like I don't think you there is a more diverse Chelsea give you one for your money but there's not a more diverse team based off of where people come from that to me is also diversity it's not just as simple as who is black and white and I think that's also for me part of the issue when we talk about diversity we only ever talk about black people or white people there are so many other races that can play football and but we only ever talk about black or white and I think that's that bothers me because it's like you're almost cutting off a large proportion of other ethnicities or minorities and it's just about make how can we make football accessible for everyone not just for a certain race or certain group.
Sue Anstiss (43:54)
You've clearly had an extraordinary career so far, Jess. I just wonder in terms of future goals and ambitions, and I know you've kind of reflected on almost not having those big goals and ambitions, but what do you still have for the future? Would you like to play abroad at some point? I'm not kind of seeding anything in terms of where you might go in the future, but what are your ambitions there?
Jess Carter (43:58)
Yeah, I do think I'd like to play abroad at some point. I don't know where yet. I think I'd like to try somewhere else in Europe and possibly outside of Europe at some point just to see what it's kind of like really. And yeah, I don't know when that will be. I've very much lived in, you know, my family are only an hour and a half from me so I don't know how I'm going to do further away than that. But it's definitely something that interests me. I've, you know, I've been in England for a while now. Yeah, 10 years since I was 16 so...I think it definitely at some point would be interesting to try somewhere else just to see, I guess, want to test myself elsewhere and I guess also to see what the way of life is somewhere else. I mean, football for me isn't everything. It's, you know, the way of life and just your happiness outside of that. I think if you're happy outside of football, then you're performing best of football, which I've already mentioned and I think that where you play and where you live and your home life can have a massive influence on that. So at some point, yeah, I'd like to try elsewhere, I’m just not sure at what point I'll be ready.
Sue Anstiss (45:35)
Do you think about the path you might like to take at the end of your playing career? I realise you've got lots of playing left to do but is that something in your head in terms of what else you might like to do beyond football?
Jess Carter (45:46)
That is something that really scares me, the thought of life after football, because I've absolutely no idea. Um, you know, we as players, I think talk about it a lot because we don't have the luxury of just stopping playing football and sitting on money for the next handful of years, because most of us don't have that. So it is obviously something that really have to, to think about. And I think over the course of our career, we start to realize things that we do and don't like. When we have to different media things, you realize things that you do and don't enjoy.
I'm currently doing a UEFA B, which I don't enjoy, but I'm like, I never know at some point, maybe at the end of my career, I might wanna be a coach. And I think that obviously coming from football, it would be a great option to have if I wanted to do it. And so I'm slowly gradually doing that at the moment. So we'll see how that goes, but yeah, I'm not too sure really. I'm not too sure. I know I like to, I can chat a lot, as you’ve well noticed so you know I do I like interacting with people and now I'm not sure what job is I can do I just sit and chat with people I'm not sure yet…
Sue Anstiss (46:55)
Like this like my job
Jess Carter
…so I have to see there'd be a yeah be doing a podcast maybe I don't think I can think of the questions though
Sue Anstiss
And just finally, if you were having a conversation now, say with yourself as a younger girl who wanted to play for England, but I don't think that you did want to play for England then, or a younger girl who wanted to play for England, what kind of advice would you give to a young player coming through today?
Jess Carter (47:11)
I think for me the most, I think I've always got two most important things. One, to just completely be yourself. Don't, you know, I've seen a lot of people try to change to suit a manager, suit other people or be someone that who they think that they should be just to kind of advance in football. And I think that the best thing you can do is be your absolute self. And to, I guess, just do what makes you happy. Cause if you don't, if you're not happy, you're not going to perform at your best. And I know that I've experienced that firsthand for my own self. And I think that ultimately, when you're happy, you do the best that you can do. And if you don't do the best that you can do, you're not happy. So it comes hand in hand. And they're, two, for me, the biggest things.
Sue Anstiss (00:02)
What a fantastic young woman Jess Carter is. I so enjoyed talking to her and loved her warm, open approach to our whole conversation. If you enjoyed the podcast, there are over 160 episodes featuring conversations with women's sport trailblazers that are free to listen to on all podcast platforms, or you can find them at our website, fearlesswomen.co.uk.
Other Lionesses I've spoken to for the podcast include Lucy Bronze, Casey Stoney, Jill Scott, Anita Asante, Steph Horton, Eni Aluko, Farah Williams, Hope Powell, Kelly Smith, and Rachel Yankey. As well as listening to all the podcasts on the website, you can also find out more about the Women's Sport Collective, a free, inclusive community for all women working in sport.
The whole of my book, Game On, The Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport, is also free to listen to on the podcast. Every episode of series 13 is me reading a chapter of the book.
Thanks again to Sport England for backing the game changes and the Women's Sport Collective through the National Lottery. And to Sam Walker at What Goes On Media who does such a great job as our executive producer. Thank you also to my fantastic colleague at Fearless Women, Kate Hannon. You can find the Game Changers on all podcast platforms and do follow us now so you don't miss out on future episodes. If you have a moment to leave a review or a rating, that would be fantastic, as it really does help us to reach new audiences. Do come and say hello on social media, where you'll find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter @SueAnstiss.
The Game Changers. Fearless women in sport.